Talk:Finnish
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Mielenkiintoista. Kaksi pikkupikku huomautusta vaan: sä oot kirjottanu yhteen kohtaan "paitsi" suomeksi.
- Aajuu, näin muistan jossain välissä huomanneeni. Pistetääns korjaten.
Ja sitten siinä missä lukee mihin eri juttuihin ð muuttui, niin voisi mainita myös ð > j (mutta ehkä sä et laske sitä "tavallisimpien äänteiden" joukkoon?).
Qwynegold 22:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Voishan noista murteista kirjoittaa paljonkin, ei ole tosin ollut kovin korkealle priorisoituna, ajattelin "sivuhaaroista" käsitellä lähisukukieliä ensin. ð → j mennee aika pitkälti ð → ∅:n alle muutenkin (hiatuksenestona).
- Saa tähän artikkeliin tietysti lisäillä kaikenlaista jos haluaa.
- (for English speakers: knock yourself out if you want to cover Finnish dialects or other Finnic languages) --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 13:19, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Ahaa, niin mä vähän ajattelinkin. Qwynegold 14:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
IPA Zounds
To have some real sound changes to play with, I made an IPA Zounds sc file from this article. It's not ready yet and probably very inaccurate.
- Neat! I've not used IPA Zounds so I can't comment on possible formatting issues etc. The unstress'd vowel changes look like they might need conditioning however? --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 22:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's correct, but stress (and other whole-syllable-properties) is a bit clumsy in Zounds, I'm just looking into the code, maybe I can change how that is dealt with. Then I can use more simple conditions than I would have to use now. -- Anaphory 11:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
- Rewritten in sch, seems to work -- Anaphory 02:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's correct, but stress (and other whole-syllable-properties) is a bit clumsy in Zounds, I'm just looking into the code, maybe I can change how that is dealt with. Then I can use more simple conditions than I would have to use now. -- Anaphory 11:54, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
#! sch charset utf-8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Proto-Uralic to modern Finnic -- sound shift file -- (c) Gereon Kaiping -- This is not meant to be precise, it contains some strange hacks, so -- do not take this seriously! -- Source: http://wiki.frath.net/Finnish ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- require >=1.0003 package SCH::Finnish -- Lists all vowels used in any stage: group A a, ä group O o, ö group U u, ü group I i, ï group E e, ï vowel a, o, u, ä, ö, ü, i, e, ï, ï -- Lists all consonants used in any stage: consonant p, t, č, k, s, ś, δ, δʲ, w, j, l, r, m, n, ŋ, ń, lʲ, x m:, n: -- group V {vowel} group C {consonant} group X :,i,U,C group S -- "sonorants" l, r w, j ------- -- Each line gives a rule to decompose a word into syllables. -- Spaces on the lines separate regexps for one syllable. syllable basic C?'?VX?C? C?'?V X?C?C?'?VX?C? C?'?V X?C?C?'?V X?C?C?'?VX?C? C?'?V X?C?C?'?V X?C?C?'?V X?C?C?'?VX?C? -- What of the initial consonant cluster of a syllable to shift back -- to the previous syllable: $1 is moved to previous syllable, $2 is -- left in next syllable. syllable break ()(C'?V) (C)(C'?V) (X)(C'?V) (XC)(C'?V) ------- -- Properties of syllables used below in the rules. -- Note: ^ and $ are implicit in a property, so we always match -- a full syllable here. property closed .*C# property open = !closed property stressed .*'.* property unstressed = !stressed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Proto-Uralic to Pre-Finnic: -- [Ca. 4000 BCE to 3000 BCE] -- PU roots generally had the form (C)V(C)C{A I}, with initial stress; in pronouns and prepositions also CV; and two lone-V roots, the negativ verb e- and the root "self", o-. -- Unclear issues: -- the quality of the vowel *ï - [ɯ] or [ɤ]? (Substitution of Indo-Iranian *a by *ï speaks for the latter, unless these particular words are newer loans.) -- the quality of the vowel *a - [ɑ] or [ɒ]? -- was the 2nd-syllable vocalism phonemically /a i/ with fronted & backed allophones, or overtly vowel-harmonic /æ a i ɯ/? -- the quality of the consonant *x - [h], [x], [ɣ], something else? step "PU>PFc" time 500 -- minus 4000 rule "Loose Eng" ŋ > n / _# -- > k in the lativ ending rule "Dephthongization" iw > ü / _C ow > u: / _C -- dubious rule "Introduction of length" x > : / _C rule "Coda nasal simplification" n > 0 / _t?ś m > n / _(t,tś) m > n / _# rule "Stressed *ï merges with *a" 'ï > 'a / _ rule "Loss of /w/" w > 0 / ^_(o,u,ü) rule "Stressed Vowel Changes" 'a: > 'o: / _ 'ä: > 'e: rule "Unstressed vowels" 'V > _ / _ a > ä / (ä,e,ï,i,ü) X? C? C _ aw,äw > o / _ ij > i iw > u i > e / _C ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Pre-Finnic to Proto-Finnic: -- [Ca. 3000 BC to 2000 BC] (likely also incomplete; this is the section of changes not shared by other branches of Uralic) step "PFc>PtFc" time 1000 -- 3000 BC to 2000 BC rule "Lengthening of CV" syllable first last V > V: /_# -- affects most old CV words with the exception of me te he se ne, which per Livonian had *-k. rule "Vowel changes" 'ä > _ / _ ä > e / _j a > e / '(o,u)X?C_j > o / '(a,e,i)X?C_j rule "Loss of remaining /x/" ixi > ö:/ _ uxi > o:/ _ xi > : / _ -- (*xA, *x# apparently did not occur) rule "Loss of /ŋ/" uŋa > o: / _ yŋä > ö: / _ ŋi > : / (A,i,u)_ ŋ > j / _(Cʲ, ś, č, ń) > _ / _k > w / _(U,O,C) / (U,O)_ rule "Loss of medial semivowels in i-stems" Uwi > U: / _ ewi > ö: / _ wI > i / _ ji > : / (e,i,ï)_ > j / A_# > j / O_ / U_ > : / A_(l,r)C?'?Vi -- (due to [je]?) > i / C_# / C_C yje > yö rule "Initial deaffrication. Newer initial affricates are found in loanwords and onomatopoeia." č > ś / #_ rule "Remove ::" fix ::>:/_ rule "Depalatalization, commonly attributed to Germanic superstratum influence." ń > ni / #C?V_V ń > n / _ ʲ > 0 / _ ś > s rule "Loss of /δ/" -- (may be gradation-related, shared with Mordvinic but not Samic. Put here to avoid requiring postulating intermediate *tʲ for the development of *ðʲ) δ > t ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Proto-Finnic to Pre-Finnish: -- [Ca. 2000 BCE to 1000 CE] step "PtFc>PtF" time 2000 -- minus 4000 rule "Loss of /č/" č: > tś č > t rule "Difthong paradigm shift" j > i / V_C j > i / V_# w > ü / (ä,ö)_C w > ü / (ä,ö)_# w > u / (a,o)_C w > u / (a,o)_# rule "Birth of consonantal suffixes" i > 0 / VC_, ks_ rule "Consonant gradation" syllable any, [closed] : > 0 / S(p, t, ts, k)_V p > b / S_V t > d s > z k > g rule "Suffixal gradation" -- (needs elaboration) syllable [unstressed], any p > b/ V_V t > d s > z k > b rule "Spirantization" (b,d,g) > _ / (n,m,ŋ)_ b > β / _ d > δ / _ g > γ / _ rule "Spirantization 2" γ > v /_ βi > u / (a,o,u).*_# βi > ü / _# -- (3PS -Pi) rule "Vowel shifts 1" syllable unstressed oi > o / _ rule "Vowel shifts 2" syllable stressed ai > ei / _ rule "Vowel shifts 3" V: > V / _i rule "Birth of consonantal root forms" e > 0 / (d,t,n,s,δ)_# -- stem-finally after a coronal rule "Assibilation" t > s / _i rule "Esh-drift" ś > x rule "Assimilation" syllable [unstressed], any (k,p)t > t: / _ xk>k: t?:?sn>s: kx > :x / _C > x: / _ rn > r: ln > l: wst > st / o_ (ptk)*m > m: / _ (ptk)*st > st / _ (ptk)*n > n: / _ rule "Fricativ collapse, part 3" c > s / _#, ^_ cs, sc > s: /_ c > θ z > h x:? > h rule "V-epenthesis" ü,ö,o > v_ / ^_: rule "Shifts involving /h/" e > : / h_ p,k > h / _t ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Proto-Finnic to Standard Finnish: -- [Ca. 1000-1900 CE] These changes are, for the most part, only attested in the Finnish-Carelian continuum. step "PtF>SF" time 5000 -- [Ca. 1000-1900 CE] rule "Flavor" -- Voiced prenasal stops become geminate nasals, and (around the same time as in a whole lot of other European languages!) long mid vowels become opening difthongs: mb > m: / _ nd > n: / _ ŋg > ŋ: / _ e: > ie ö: > üö o: > uo rule "Changes involving /j/" j > i / C_ -- suffix-initially rule "More shifts with /h/" Vh > hV / (Vi,n,l,r)_# k,h > * / _# s > h / _l t > 0 / h_r rule "Pre-sonorant stop vocalization" p > u / (a,o,u).*_S > ü / _S t > _ / _(v,j) > u / _r(a, o) > ü / _r(ä, ö) > : / _r(i, e) k > : / _j > i / (i, e)_S(i, e) > u / (a, o, u)_S > ü / (ä, ö, ü)_S rule "Spirant loss" β > 0 / _UC > v / _V δ > _ / 'VX?_ iδ > j / V_V δ > l / l_ > r / r_ > 0 / _ γ > j / C_e > v / U_U > ʔ / VV_V > 0 / _ h > _ / 'VX?_ > 0 / VX?_V rule "Subsequent vowel changes in unstressed syllables" AO > A: / _ -- or O: or U: (seemingly irregularly) Ae > Ai / _ Ue > e: / _ VU > V: / _# iU > U: / _ OU > O: / _ rule "Initial-syllable labialization" eü > öü / _ e > ö / _(X)(C)Cü i > ü ie > üö i > ü / _wä rule "interdental loss" θ:? > ts δ > d ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Standard Finnish to Orthography: -- [Ca. 2000 CE] step "Orth" time 6000 rule "long>double" C: > __ / _ V: > __ / _ rule "remove :'" ' > 0 / _ : > 0 / _ rule "different writing" ü > y / _ w > v
