Talk:Proto-Northern-Romance (MGR)

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Pronouns

Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns

Many of these pronouns have a short or unstressed and a long or stressed form. Where this is the case the short or unstressed form is shown to the left and the long or stressed to the right with a slash between them. It should be noted that some of these stressed or long forms go back to Latin unstressed forms which became stressed once again in certain contexts. These re-stressed forms with lengthened vowels could then lose stress again, resulting in doublets with a long vowel and a diphthong respectively, and thus three different forms corresponding to three degrees of stress or emphasis. In the further development of the separate languages some or other of these forms usually fell out of use, the cycle of loss and acquisition of stress going on through the centuries. The impersonal pronoun hom is in origin an unstressed form of the noun hoam 'man' < homō, illustrating this process at its extreme.

Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
Singular Plural
m. f. m. f.
1st person Nom. jō nus
Acc. mi/mē/mei
Gen. mīs ma nōster nōstra
Dat. mī nous
2d person Nom. tū wus
Acc. ti/tē/tei
Gen. tus ta wōster wōstra
Dat. tī wous Refl. Impers.
3d person Nom. el ella lī/ellī lē/lei/ellas hom
Acc. lu/lō/lou la/lā los/els las/ellas si/sē/sei hom(m)
Gen. sus sa lōr/lour/ellōr hommis
Dat. lui lei līs/ellīs sī hommī



Revision I (PMC)

I've marked the table up as follows. Underlined red text where the pronoun differs from the one in your above table. Text in (bracketed small italics) for pronouns forms with which I concur, but haven't intended for development into (High) Jermench.

IMNSHO underlining should be reserved to mark hyperlinks, so I changed these to red only, and using the wiki's {{red|}} template. If you want to see them underlining add the following code to User:Pete/monobook.css:
.red {
    color: red;
    text-decoration: underline;
}

The columns have been reaaranged, primarily to reduce the amount of empty space, but also because this layout seems a little more logical to me - paricularly with regard to the reflexive pronouns.

I've made the following changes to the pronouns:

  • Hommis > Hommes:
    • Unstressed original /i/ shifts to /E/, not /I/.
According to my understanding all of Latin unstressed ĭ,ē,ĕ shift to a single mid vowel /e/ which gets identified as */ɪ/ in Germano-Romance and then later is lost together with unstressed */ʊ/ similarly from ŭ, ō, ŏ — i.e. corresponding to two mid heights front and back among stressed vowels there is only one vowel each front and back of indeterminate mid height which in PNR gets identified as high lax. Probably they tended towards [ɪ̵], [ʊ̶] as in the OTL precursor to Old French. Of course how you write that indeterminate mid vowel i/e or u/o is of course a matter of taste.
  • Hom(m) > Homme:
Uh, yes, we have to determine which stage of PNR — before of after the loss of unstressed /e/ɪ/ and /o/ʊ/ this page is going to represent.
    • Unstressed final syllable /E/ is only lost after an obstruent - loss here is therefore blocked by the /m/.
Where did you find such a restriction on the loss of unstressed /e/? After all OF has Template:CS > pain!
  • el > elle
    • No loss of final /E/, as above.
  • 3rd person accusatives:
    • Grandgent posits *sě for the accusative singular and plural in VL (§385).
    • Elle etc is being used for the definite article - would this preculde its simultaneous use as a pronoun?
  • 3rd person datives:
    • Grandgent posits *sī (< sibi, and by analogy with mī & tī) for the dative singular and plural in VL (§385).
    • Elle etc is being used for the definite article - would this preculde its simultaneous use as a pronoun?
  • Reflexive pronouns:
    • These also need 1st and 2nd person forms.
    • My understanding is, that although CL had forms for all the cases except nomnitive, only accusative forms survived?


Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
Singular Plural
m. f. refl. impers. m. f. refl.
1st person Nom. jō ― ― nus ―
Acc. (mi / mē) mei ― nus
Gen. mīs ma ― ― nōster (nōstra) ―
Dat. mī ― ― nous ―
2d person Nom. tū ― ― wus ―
Acc. (ti / tē) tei ― wus
Gen. tus ta ― ― wōster (wōstra) ―
Dat. tī ― ― wous ―
3d person Nom. elle ella ― hom (lī) ellī (lē / lei) ellas ―
Acc. (si / sē) sei homme (si / sē) sei
Gen. sus sa ― hommes (lōr / lour) ellōr ―
Dat. sī ― hommī sī ―


Interrogative and Relative

Interrogative and relative pronouns
Singular Plural
m. f. m. f.
Nom. cī
Acc. ce cus quas
Gen. cūjjas quājjas cour quar
Dat. cī quāj cius

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