Talk:Proto-Northern-Romance (MGR): Difference between revisions

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=== Revision I (PMC)===
=== Revision I (PMC)===


I've marked the table up as follows. <font color="red"><u> Underlined red text </u></font> where the pronoun differs from the one in your above table. Text in <small>''(bracketed small italics)''</small> for pronouns forms with which I concur, but haven't intended for development into (High) Jermench.
I've marked the table up as follows. {{red|<u> Underlined red text </u>}} where the pronoun differs from the one in your above table. Text in {{small|''(bracketed small italics)''}} for pronouns forms with which I concur, but haven't intended for development into (High) Jermench.


The columns have been reaaranged, primarily to reduce the amount of empty space, but also because this layout seems a little more logical to me - paricularly with regard to the reflexive pronouns.
The columns have been reaaranged, primarily to reduce the amount of empty space, but also because this layout seems a little more logical to me - paricularly with regard to the reflexive pronouns.
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*Hommis > Hommes:
*Hommis > Hommes:
**Unstressed original /i/ shifts to /E/, not /I/.
**Unstressed original /i/ shifts to /E/, not /I/.
*Hom(m) > Homme:
*Hom(m) > Homme:
**Unstressed final syllable /E/ is only lost after an obstruent - loss here is therefore blocked by the /m/.
**Unstressed final syllable /E/ is only lost after an obstruent - loss here is therefore blocked by the /m/.
*el > elle
*el > elle
Line 118: Line 118:


{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
!colspan=9 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns  
!colspan=9 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
|-
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2|
| colspan=2 rowspan=2|
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! rowspan="4" | 1st person
! rowspan="4" | 1st person
! Nom.
! Nom.
| colspan="2" | jō  
| colspan="2" | jō
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="1" | ―
| ―
| ―
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|-
|-
! Acc.
! Acc.
| colspan="3" | <small>''(mi / mē)''</small> mei  
| colspan="3" | {{small|''(mi / mē)''}} mei
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="3" | nus
| colspan="3" | nus
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| ―
| ―
| nōster
| nōster
| <small>''(nōstra)''</small>
| {{small|''(nōstra)''}}
| ―
| ―
|-
|-
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|-
|-
! Acc.
! Acc.
| colspan="3" | <small>''(ti / tē)''</small> tei
| colspan="3" | {{small|''(ti / tē)''}} tei
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="3" | wus
| colspan="3" | wus
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| ―
| ―
| wōster
| wōster
| <small>''(wōstra)''</small>
| {{small|''(wōstra)''}}
| ―
| ―
|-
|-
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! rowspan="4" | 3d person
! rowspan="4" | 3d person
! Nom.
! Nom.
| <font color="red"><u>elle</u></font>
| {{red|<u>elle</u>}}
| ella
| ella
| ―
| ―
| hom
| hom
| <small>''(lī)''</small> ellī
| {{small|''(lī)''}} ellī
| <small>''(lē / lei)''</small> ellas
| {{small|''(lē / lei)''}} ellas
| ―
| ―
|-
|-
! Acc.
! Acc.
| colspan="3" | <font color="red"><u><small>''(si / sē) ''</small> sei</u></font>
| colspan="3" | {{red|<u>{{small|''(si / sē) ''}} sei</u>}}
| <font color="red"><u>homme</u></font>
| {{red|<u>homme</u>}}
| colspan="3" | <font color="red"><u><small>''(si / sē) ''</small> sei</u></font>
| colspan="3" | {{red|<u>{{small|''(si / sē) ''}} sei</u>}}
|-
|-
! Gen.
! Gen.
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| sa
| sa
| ―
| ―
| <font color="red"><u>hommes</u></font>
| {{red|<u>hommes</u>}}
| colspan="2" | <small>''(lōr / lour)''</small> ellōr
| colspan="2" | {{small|''(lōr / lour)''}} ellōr
| ―
| ―
|-
|-
! Dat.
! Dat.
| colspan="2" | <font color="red"><u>sī</u></font>
| colspan="2" | {{red|<u>sī</u>}}
| colspan="1" | <font color="red"> ― </font>
| colspan="1" | {{red| ― }}
| hommī
| hommī
| colspan="2" | <font color="red"><u>sī</u></font>
| colspan="2" | {{red|<u>sī</u>}}
| <font color="red"> ― </font>
| {{red| ― }}
|}
|}
<div>
<div>
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{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
!colspan=5 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Interrogative and relative pronouns  
!colspan=5 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Interrogative and relative pronouns
|-
|-
| rowspan=2|
| rowspan=2|
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|-
|-
! Nom.
! Nom.
| colspan="4" | cī  
| colspan="4" | cī
|-
|-
! Acc.
! Acc.
| colspan="2" | ce  
| colspan="2" | ce
| cus
| cus
| quas
| quas

Revision as of 00:38, 24 July 2008

Pronouns

Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns

Many of these pronouns have a short or unstressed and a long or stressed form. Where this is the case the short or unstressed form is shown to the left and the long or stressed to the right with a slash between them. It should be noted that some of these stressed or long forms go back to Latin unstressed forms which became stressed once again in certain contexts. These re-stressed forms with lengthened vowels could then lose stress again, resulting in doublets with a long vowel and a diphthong respectively, and thus three different forms corresponding to three degrees of stress or emphasis. In the further development of the separate languages some or other of these forms usually fell out of use, the cycle of loss and acquisition of stress going on through the centuries. The impersonal pronoun hom is in origin an unstressed form of the noun hoam 'man' < homō, illustrating this process at its extreme.

Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
Singular Plural
m. f. m. f.
1st person Nom. jō nus
Acc. mi/mē/mei
Gen. mīs ma nōster nōstra
Dat. mī nous
2d person Nom. tū wus
Acc. ti/tē/tei
Gen. tus ta wōster wōstra
Dat. tī wous Refl. Impers.
3d person Nom. el ella lī/ellī lē/lei/ellas hom
Acc. lu/lō/lou la/lā los/els las/ellas si/sē/sei hom(m)
Gen. sus sa lōr/lour/ellōr hommis
Dat. lui lei līs/ellīs sī hommī



Revision I (PMC)

I've marked the table up as follows. Underlined red text where the pronoun differs from the one in your above table. Text in (bracketed small italics) for pronouns forms with which I concur, but haven't intended for development into (High) Jermench.

The columns have been reaaranged, primarily to reduce the amount of empty space, but also because this layout seems a little more logical to me - paricularly with regard to the reflexive pronouns.

I've made the following changes to the pronouns:

  • Hommis > Hommes:
    • Unstressed original /i/ shifts to /E/, not /I/.
  • Hom(m) > Homme:
    • Unstressed final syllable /E/ is only lost after an obstruent - loss here is therefore blocked by the /m/.
  • el > elle
    • No loss of final /E/, as above.
  • 3rd person accusatives:
    • Grandgent posits *sě for the accusative singular and plural in VL (§385).
    • Elle etc is being used for the definite article - would this preculde its simultaneous use as a pronoun?
  • 3rd person datives:
    • Grandgent posits *sī (< sibi, and by analogy with mī & tī) for the dative singular and plural in VL (§385).
    • Elle etc is being used for the definite article - would this preculde its simultaneous use as a pronoun?
  • Reflexive pronouns:
    • These also need 1st and 2nd person forms.
    • My understanding is, that although CL had forms for all the cases except nomnitive, only accusative forms survived?


Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
Singular Plural
m. f. refl. impers. m. f. refl.
1st person Nom. jō ― ― nus ―
Acc. (mi / mē) mei ― nus
Gen. mīs ma ― ― nōster (nōstra) ―
Dat. mī ― ― nous ―
2d person Nom. tū ― ― wus ―
Acc. (ti / tē) tei ― wus
Gen. tus ta ― ― wōster (wōstra) ―
Dat. tī ― ― wous ―
3d person Nom. elle ella ― hom (lī) ellī (lē / lei) ellas ―
Acc. (si / sē) sei homme (si / sē) sei
Gen. sus sa ― hommes (lōr / lour) ellōr ―
Dat. sī ― hommī sī ―


Interrogative and Relative

Interrogative and relative pronouns
Singular Plural
m. f. m. f.
Nom. cī
Acc. ce cus quas
Gen. cūjjas quājjas cour quar
Dat. cī quāj cius

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