Talk:Europic: Difference between revisions

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'''Europic and Afrasian'''
Now that administrative measures against the abusive "Talskubilos" have been taken, I'm opening this discussion page again.  The minutes of the sordid debate can be found [[Talk:Europic/Talskubilos|here]], for those interested.
--[[User:WeepingElf|WeepingElf]] 10:35, 29 July 2012 (PDT)


If the speakers of Europic were Neolithic farmers who came to Europe from the Near East, we should expect a close relationship between Europic and Afrasian (aka Afro-Asiatic), as implictly suggested by Vennemann, who proposed an "Atlantidic" (aka "Semitidic") substrate to explain some Germanic words of non-IE origin.
Hi Jörg, I updated my [[User:Talskubilos|user page]] to summarize my ideas and where I also mention you. [[User:Talskubilos|Talskubilos]] 07:20, 11 September 2012 (PDT)


There's also the fact most Afrasian languages have a 3-vowel system like the one proposed for Europic, presumably as the result of a collapse like the one proposed by Orel and Stolbova (1995), which differs from the Great Vowel Collapse (GVC) in that vowels '''e, o''' developed into '''i, u''' or the corresponding glides '''j, w'''. If we assume a similar evolution between Europic and PIE, then we'll have Europic '''*e''' > PIE '''*ei ~ *oi ~ *i''' and Europic '''*o''' > PIE '''*eu ~ *ou ~ *u''', where '''*e ~ *o''' is the IE Ablaut vowel, which developed from '''*a''' except in OEH and Indo-Iranian. As a consequence, the GVC never happened.
Fair.  I have read it.  Of course, my opinion differs, but that won't be news to you ;)
--[[User:WeepingElf|WeepingElf]] 13:28, 11 September 2012 (PDT)


Also in this system, '''i, u''' were actually ''semivowels'' and hence they couldn't appear before resonants. In that case, the resonant shifted to the syllable onset, so there's also no need for the RCL.
I also hope you won't refer to me anymore as a crackpot elsewhere (e.g. in ZBB) :-) [[User:Talskubilos|Talskubilos]] ([[User talk:Talskubilos|talk]]) 13:47, 20 September 2016 (PDT)


----
== Europic is obsolete! ==
:There are also (rare) cases of alternation of type '''*e ~ *i''' and '''*o ~ *u'''. I would imagine the Pre-PIE system of a type:
:{| class=wikitable
! High
| i || ə ~ 0 || u
|-
! Low
| e || a || o
|}
:With a height opposition and a schwa being allophone of the zero grade. Then they merge: [e] with [ə] to '''*e''' and [a] with [o] to '''*o'''. How much probable would that be? [[User:MilyAMD|MilyAMD]] 13:03, 16 July 2012 (PDT)


----
As I have laid out on [[Europic#Abandonment|the page itself]], '''I have dropped this hypothesis!''' It is obsolete, so ''please'' do not claim that I consider PIE and the LBK language to be related. '''I no longer do so.''' Rather, the LBK language may have been related to Kartvelian (the Georgians seem to be the closest modern genetic relatives of the LBK people), but even that is sheer speculation. --[[User:WeepingElf|WeepingElf]] ([[User talk:WeepingElf|talk]]) 10:07, 4 April 2017 (PDT)
 
@Talskubilos:
 
I cannot say you are wrong, but I don't consider Afroasiatic a likely candidate for the next closest kin of Europic.
 
@MilyAMD:
 
No.  You'd get */i/ ~ */e/ and */u/ ~ */o/ "ablaut" alternations that '''aren't observed in PIE''', at least not in the same function as the familiar */e/ ~ */o/ ablaut. These alternations are a myth spread by the late Joseph Greenberg, nothing else.  He tried to connect IE ablaut to vowel harmony systems found in languages of eastern Siberia, but this is impossible, especially considering that IE ablaut is not a vowel harmony system of ''any'' kind (you'd expect ''all'' morphemes to be in the same grade if it was, which is not the case).
 
--[[User:WeepingElf|WeepingElf]] 13:22, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
 
@WeepingElf:
 
I think you've got some pre-conceived ideas about the subject. Perhaps if you knew more about Frasian, you'd change your opinion. [[User:Talskubilos|Talskubilos]] 15:16, 16 July 2012 (PDT)

Latest revision as of 09:07, 4 April 2017

Now that administrative measures against the abusive "Talskubilos" have been taken, I'm opening this discussion page again. The minutes of the sordid debate can be found here, for those interested. --WeepingElf 10:35, 29 July 2012 (PDT)

Hi Jörg, I updated my user page to summarize my ideas and where I also mention you. Talskubilos 07:20, 11 September 2012 (PDT)

Fair. I have read it. Of course, my opinion differs, but that won't be news to you ;) --WeepingElf 13:28, 11 September 2012 (PDT)

I also hope you won't refer to me anymore as a crackpot elsewhere (e.g. in ZBB) :-) Talskubilos (talk) 13:47, 20 September 2016 (PDT)

Europic is obsolete!

As I have laid out on the page itself, I have dropped this hypothesis! It is obsolete, so please do not claim that I consider PIE and the LBK language to be related. I no longer do so. Rather, the LBK language may have been related to Kartvelian (the Georgians seem to be the closest modern genetic relatives of the LBK people), but even that is sheer speculation. --WeepingElf (talk) 10:07, 4 April 2017 (PDT)

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