Talk:Proto-Northern-Romance (MGR): Difference between revisions

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= Pronouns =
Major revisions to morphology April 2010 following improvements to sound change program.


=== Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns ===
::: * * *


Many of these pronouns have a short or unstressed and a long or stressed form.  Where this is the case the short or unstressed form is shown to the left and the long or stressed to the right with a slash between them. It should be noted that some of these stressed or long forms go back to Latin unstressed forms which became stressed once again in certain contexts. These re-stressed forms with lengthened vowels could then lose stress again, resulting in doublets with a long vowel and a diphthong respectively, and thus three different forms corresponding to three degrees of stress or emphasis.  In the further development of the separate languages some or other of these forms usually fell out of use, the cycle of loss and acquisition of stress going on through the centuries. The impersonal pronoun '''hom''' is in origin an unstressed form of the noun '''hoam''' 'man' < {{SC|homō}}, illustrating this process at its extreme.
===== ''Ewert on atonic vowels'' =====
''Ewert's treatment is terse, to the point and clarifying:''
<div class="border-left">
''Fine distinctions of quality are obliterated, with the result that ɛ and e, ɔ and o falI together. Further, the V.L. quantitative distinction (if it ever existed in atonic vowels, cf. § 21) was not maintained. GalIo-Roman therefore inherited from V.L. the atonic vowels a, e, i, o, u, which were presumably short and were already tending to weaken and disappear.''


{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
''(ii) FINAL AND COUNTERFINAL VOWELS''
!colspan=8 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2|
! colspan="2" | Singular
! colspan="2" | Plural
| colspan=2 rowspan=7 |
|-
! m.
! f.
! m.
! f.
|-
! rowspan="4" | 1st person
! Nom.
| colspan="2" | jō
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | nus
|-
! Acc.
| colspan="2" | mi/mē/mei
|-
! Gen.
| mīs
| ma
| nōster
| nōstra
|-
! Dat.
| colspan="2" | mī
| colspan="2" | nous
|-
! rowspan="4" | 2d person
! Nom.
| colspan="2" | tū
| rowspan="2" colspan="2" | wus
|-
! Acc.
| colspan="2" | ti/tē/tei
|-
! Gen.
| tus
| ta
| wōster
| wōstra
|-
! Dat.
| colspan="2" | tī
| colspan="2" | wous
! Refl.
! Impers.
|-
! rowspan="4" | 3d person
! Nom.
| el
| ella
| lī/ellī
| lē/lei/ellas
|
| hom
|-
! Acc.
| lu/lō/lou
| la/lā
| los/els
| las/ellas
| si/sē/sei
| hom(m)
|-
! Gen.
| sus
| sa
| colspan="2" | lōr/lour/ellōr
|
| hommis
|-
! Dat.
| lui
| lei
| colspan="2" | līs/ellīs
| sī
| hommī
|}
<div>
<br>
<br>
<hr>
 
=== Revision I (PMC)===
 
I've marked the table up as follows. <font color="red"><u> Underlined red text </u></font> where the pronoun differs from the one in your above table. Text in <small>''(bracketed small italics)''</small> for pronouns forms with which I concur, but haven't intended for development into (High) Jermench.
 
The columns have been reaaranged, primarily to reduce the amount of empty space, but also because this layout seems a little more logical to me - paricularly with regard to the reflexive pronouns.
 
I've made the following '''changes''' to the pronouns:


*Hommis > Hommes:
''29. These persist in V.L. in a weakened form with a tendency to confuse e and i, o and u. In Old French, a remains in a weakened form as so-calIed feminine e ( = ə) (cf. § 61): BONA> bonne, AMAS> aimes. This change dates from about the end of the eighth century. e, i, o, u generally disappear (about the seventh century), but they persist in the form of the weakened supporting vowel ə in the following cases: (a) before a group of consonants (AMENT>aiment); (b) after a group of consonants requiring a supporting vowel, notably cons. + I, r, m, n, excepting kl, gr, gn, rm, rn (DUPLUM > double, PATREM > peðre >pere, *HELMU (Germ. helm) > helme > heaume, ALNUM> alne> aune). The group may be primary, i.e. inherited as such from Latin, or secondary, i.e. developed subsequently through the loss of a vowel (MASCULUM > MASC'LU > masle> male). In the absence of any supporting vowel an ə is developed (INSIMUL> ENSEM'L > ensemble, MINOR> MEN'R > mendre later moindre ≠ moins). It will be seen that ə persists even after the reduction of the group which originalIy required the supporting vowel (pere, heaume, aune, male). For the apparent exceptions presented by borrowed words, cf. § 500.''
**Unstressed original /i/ shifts to /E/, not /I/.
</div>
*Hom(m) > Homme:
**Unstressed final syllable /E/ is only lost after an obstruent - loss here is therefore blocked by the /m/.
*el > elle
**No loss of final /E/, as above.
*3rd person accusatives:
**Grandgent posits *sě for the accusative singular and plural in VL (§385).
**Elle etc is being used for the definite article - would this preculde its simultaneous use as a pronoun?
*3rd person datives:
**Grandgent posits *sī (< sibi, and by analogy with mī & tī) for the dative singular and plural in VL (§385).
**Elle etc is being used for the definite article - would this preculde its simultaneous use as a pronoun?
*Reflexive pronouns:
**These also need 1st and 2nd person forms.
**My understanding is, that although CL had forms for all the cases except nomnitive, only accusative forms survived?


: ''I take this to mean:''


{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
{| class=gridtable
!colspan=9 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Personal, reflexive and impersonal pronouns
! C.L. !! V.L.? !! Stage 1 !! Stage 2 !! Stage 3 !! OF
|-
| colspan=2 rowspan=2|
! colspan="4" | Singular
! colspan="3" | Plural
|-
! m.
! f.
! refl.
! impers.
! m.
! f.
! refl.
|-
! rowspan="4" | 1st person
! Nom.
| colspan="2" | jō
| colspan="1" | ―
| ―
| colspan="2" | nus
| colspan="1" | ―
|-
! Acc.
| colspan="3" | <small>''(mi / mē)''</small> mei
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="3" | nus
|-
! Gen.
| mīs
| ma
| ―
| ―
| nōster
| <small>''(nōstra)''</small>
| ―
|-
! Dat.
| colspan="2" | mī
| colspan="1" | ―
| ―
| colspan="2" | nous
| colspan="1" | ―
|-
! rowspan="4" | 2d person
! Nom.
| colspan="2" | tū
| colspan="1" | ―
| ―
| colspan="2" | wus
| colspan="1" | ―
|-
! Acc.
| colspan="3" | <small>''(ti / tē)''</small> tei
| colspan="1" | ―
| colspan="3" | wus
|-
! Gen.
| tus
| ta
| ―
| ―
| wōster
| <small>''(wōstra)''</small>
| ―
|-
! Dat.
| colspan="2" | tī
| colspan="1" | ―
| ―
| colspan="2" | wous
| colspan="1" | ―
|-
! rowspan="4" | 3d person
! Nom.
| <font color="red"><u>elle</u></font>
| ella
| ―
| hom
| <small>''(lī)''</small>  ellī
| <small>''(lē / lei)''</small>  ellas
| ―
|-
|-
! Acc.
| ī || i || i || i || i || i
| colspan="3" | <font color="red"><u><small>''(si / sē)''</small> sei</u></font>
| <font color="red"><u>homme</u></font>
| colspan="3" | <font color="red"><u><small>''(si / sē)''</small> sei</u></font>
|-
|-
! Gen.
| ĭ || ɪ ||rowspan=2| e ||rowspan=3| e ||rowspan=3| ə ||rowspan=3| —
| sus
| sa
| ―
| <font color="red"><u>hommes</u></font>
| colspan="2" | <small>''(lōr / lour)''</small> ellōr
| ―
|-
|-
! Dat.
| ē || e
| colspan="2" | <font color="red"><u>sī</u></font>
| colspan="1" | <font color="red"> ― </font>
| hommī
| colspan="2" | <font color="red"><u>sī</u></font>
| <font color="red"> ― </font>
|}
<div>
<br>
==== Interrogative and Relative ====
 
{| cellspacing="4" class="shadedtable bordertable"
!colspan=5 class="shadedtable" style="border: 0px !important;"| Interrogative and relative pronouns
|-
|-
| rowspan=2|
| ĕ || ɛ || ɛ
! colspan="2" | Singular
! colspan="2" | Plural
|-
|-
! m.
| ū || u || u || u || y || y
! f.
! m.
! f.
|-
|-
! Nom.
| ŭ || ʊ ||rowspan=2| o ||rowspan=3| o ||rowspan=3| ə ||rowspan=3| —
| colspan="4" | cī
|-
|-
! Acc.
| ō || o
| colspan="2" | ce
| cus
| quas
|-
|-
! Gen.
| ŏ || ɔ || ɔ
| cūjjas
| quājjas
| cour
| quar
|-
|-
! Dat.
| ā, ă || a || a || a || a || ə
| cī
| quāj
| colspan="2" | cius
|}
|}
</div><br>
[[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 21:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:03, 10 April 2010

Major revisions to morphology April 2010 following improvements to sound change program.

* * *
Ewert on atonic vowels

Ewert's treatment is terse, to the point and clarifying:

Fine distinctions of quality are obliterated, with the result that ɛ and e, ɔ and o falI together. Further, the V.L. quantitative distinction (if it ever existed in atonic vowels, cf. § 21) was not maintained. GalIo-Roman therefore inherited from V.L. the atonic vowels a, e, i, o, u, which were presumably short and were already tending to weaken and disappear.

(ii) FINAL AND COUNTERFINAL VOWELS

29. These persist in V.L. in a weakened form with a tendency to confuse e and i, o and u. In Old French, a remains in a weakened form as so-calIed feminine e ( = ə) (cf. § 61): BONA> bonne, AMAS> aimes. This change dates from about the end of the eighth century. e, i, o, u generally disappear (about the seventh century), but they persist in the form of the weakened supporting vowel ə in the following cases: (a) before a group of consonants (AMENT>aiment); (b) after a group of consonants requiring a supporting vowel, notably cons. + I, r, m, n, excepting kl, gr, gn, rm, rn (DUPLUM > double, PATREM > peðre >pere, *HELMU (Germ. helm) > helme > heaume, ALNUM> alne> aune). The group may be primary, i.e. inherited as such from Latin, or secondary, i.e. developed subsequently through the loss of a vowel (MASCULUM > MASC'LU > masle> male). In the absence of any supporting vowel an ə is developed (INSIMUL> ENSEM'L > ensemble, MINOR> MEN'R > mendre later moindre ≠ moins). It will be seen that ə persists even after the reduction of the group which originalIy required the supporting vowel (pere, heaume, aune, male). For the apparent exceptions presented by borrowed words, cf. § 500.

I take this to mean:
C.L. V.L.? Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 OF
ī i i i i i
ĭ ɪ e e ə —
ē e
ĕ ɛ ɛ
ū u u u y y
ŭ ʊ o o ə —
ō o
ŏ ɔ ɔ
ā, ă a a a a ə

BPJ 21:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

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